I've been struggling through this topic lately in my mind. When I was pregnant with Jesse, I think Jeff and I said at least five times, "We are done." The minute we sat quietly with Jesse in the hospital, we changed our tune and thought, "We should have more." (Of course this cycle has continued from bad moments to good moments and round and round we go).
What bothers me is that I don't have a consistent ideology on this topic. In fact, I have competing values. Now that we have a boy and a girl, the question people often ask is, "Are you done?" In other words, is the Liou family complete? I really don't know and only God does, but here is some food for thought.
There are some things that run through my head when I think about more kids. For example,
- My parents both came from large families (7 and 5 kids). This was a struggle for the parents raising those kids, but it yielded huge pay offs later in life to have many grandchildren and a large family. It also benefited my generation (who had smaller families of 1-3 kids) to be from a huge extended family.
- When I was pregnant with my second, a professor at Jeff's school said, "It will do [Emma] a lot of good." Then he added, "Actually three or four more would do her a lot of good." He then went on to talk about how the biggest mistake of his generation was the invention of the 2 children family. (This is what got me thinking).
- Of course, the practical side of me also thinks about resources. Financially how many kids can we provide for? How many weddings and college funds can we provide for? Would I be willing to have more kids and not fund their college educations? Do we have enough energy for more kids? Practically speaking, at what point does being a working mother become impossible or child care far too expensive to justify working outside the home?
- I think about lifestyle. Do we want to be able to move past the baby and nap stage sooner rather than later and get to the point where we can go on family vacations, take day trips, and eat at restaurants without worrying about a baby or toddler or do we want to cycle back to the beginning? Do I want to have a van that is completely filled just with my children and no room for an extra passenger? Do I want to furnish my life with strollers and the like for another stint?
- I think about long-term lifestyle. Do I want to eventually be a grandma with two kids and just a few grandchildren if I'm lucky or have a whole clan around me like my grandparents did?
- I think about the children I do have. How will it impact Emma to have another sister or brother? How will it impact Jesse to be a big brother instead of the baby? How much of our attention will the children we have lose if we divide ourselves among more children? Is this a good thing or a bad thing? At what point would you lose a personal connection to your children because you have so many that you can't be close to each one?
- Lastly, I think about pregnancy and how hard it is (especially with other kids to watch) and then I think about putting my body through the 20-30 lb weight gain and loss cycle again. As it is, I still have the last 5 lbs to lose from my last pregnancy.
Part of why I asked the question, "Is there such a thing as too many kids?" is because I believe we don't give kids enough value. On the one hand, Americans tend to idolize the children we do have. We make them extensions of ourselves in an unhealthy way and depend on their performances or appearances to make us feel good. If you don't believe me, watch TLC's Toddlers and Tiaras. On the other hand, I often hear children or the idea of children treated as a burden before they are born. Young married women hope they don't get pregnant. Women with kids hope they don't get pregnant again. When someone has more kids than the average or multiple kids close in age, we often say, "Oh, I feel bad for them," or "What are they going to do with all those kids?"
I confess that I have fallen into the trap of thinking some of these things at different times. However, the truth is, once a baby is born, it's easy to welcome that baby into the world and into your family. Each child is a blessing and a new little person to love. It takes a particularly cruel person to belittle the existence of a baby once they are born. This is the part that makes additional children feel like something I should want rather than fear. What you gain by having that child in your life is far better than anything you give up. In fact, it makes me sad when women or men feel bad for me that I am doing seminary with kids. Yes, it's harder with kids, but what they don't know is that life is better and richer with my kids. They shouldn't feel bad for me. I feel bad for them that they think kids are a burden. The more the better, even if they are a lot of hard work. Each child is a person, created by God and made in His image.
So, what do you think? What constitutes too many kids in an average situation? Is there such a thing? What values should take top priority for those that have the luxury of playing a role in the decision making process of whether to have more children? (I realize some people don't have the luxury of choice here). Have you decided whether your family is complete? If so, how? (Of course, I realize that for all of us, even those who have had success with having children, that it's not totally our deciding and actually God that gives us our children, but I'm speaking in terms of free will.)
I'm interested to hear your thoughts because I am still shaping mine.
Comments (16)
there are many of your bullet points that i will not (or cannot) comment on because either i haven't fully developed my ideology or i'm not sure how to articulate my thoughts properly.
but i will say a couple of things:
1.) having more children has only blessed the children we already have. granted, we only have three-going-on-four, but every time i am worried that our current kids will get jipped, or that i'm not enough of a parent for another child, we find out that having that next child was a total blessing. our kids have grown in love and care for each other in a way that could not have happened if i only had one or two.
2.) the logistics (time, money, lifestyle) work themselves out. i'd hate not to welcome another child simply because i wasn't willing to change my lifestyle in a way that i wasn't expecting or initially desiring. (i absolutely know that's not what you're saying, it's just something that's run through my own head from time to time...)
2.) i tend to lean more toward welcoming more children rather than limiting family size. every child has been such a blessing that i can't imagine not meeting one that i "decided" not to have. i know that's vague (intentionally so).
@serinat - Thanks, Serina. You confirm a lot about what I imagine would be true in big families. Each kid is a blessing and (of course) you would never trade them in for the world and take lifetsyle changes and challenges in strides. Have you decided how you will know your family is complete?
@serinat - oops, maybe you answered that question in #3 when you said you lean toward welcoming more.
really fascinating article about christians and large families that i just happened to read a few days ago! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8287740.stm
@bevLY - Thanks, Beverly. I believe the Duggars from the show 18 kids and Counting on TLC is a part of this. To be honest, this kind of movement is exactly what freaks me out about Christians and big families!
In my case, my siblings are some of the best friends I have. We always do everything together. Yes, we get into fights, but it really is getting better (I would say only one really big fight a month now)
When Clara was born, I never felt lonely or neglected. I was just overjoyed to have another playmate. When Ben and Si came home, it was the same.Of course I have many close friends outside of my family, but they're not exactly bound to me in the same way my siblings are. I know for sure that my siblings will always be there and I've always wanted more.
I would say that there are huge benefits to having a sister relationship/brother relationship in your life. Clara and I do things together Ben and Si would never do with us. Ben and Si spend hours in their room doing things Clara and I would never get into. Four is definitely the limit for mom. Despite constant pleas for more siblings from me and Clara, she's too tired to take on any more. But four was always the number our parents had in mind from the beginning of their marriage. They always thought that they would have two biological kids and then adopt two. Lastly, I can always express myself with my siblings in a completely different way than I can with my friends. I think this is probably because I know their lives and personalities, strengths and weaknesses, better than anyone else. We've been through more fights and adventures and strife and fun than I've been through with most of my friends.If you're thinking about big families, and financial worries and energy levels, you should check out the Green family blog (hishandshisfeettoday.blogspot.com) They live in Michigan, have ten kids (all under the age of ten) and their dad is a bike salesman. They are an amazing testimony to how God always provides.
Very interesting entry, and things I have thought over myself.
I have always wanted lots of kids. It's more fun. And I felt sorry for my friends who came from 1-2 children homes. All that pressure for them to be the sole entertainment of their homes! :)
On the flip side, though, as the oldest of 5, I got "pushed out of the nest" at the tender age of 2, and rarely got any special attention after that. My parents love me and think I'm great, but the younger kids always got the attention.
And, affordability. I grew up on free lunches at school and food stamps (this is not a big deal to me, but shows our economic status). I never got to be in band because we couldn't afford an instrument. I didn't go on school trips or family vacations. I'm a tall girl, and I never had attractive clothes that fit me. I wore men's clothes in high school for the length, and often got mistaken for a man because of it.
So for me, if adding another child seems like I won't have enough "Olivia and me" time, or I can't buy her 34-inch inseam jeans, then it's time to call it quits.
Good luck figuring out God's calling for the Liou clan numbers!
yeah, i sort of answered in point #3, but like i said, vaguely. we don't really know whether or not we're done. i always thought we'd have four, at least, but i was really happy with two for a while. i thought we might be done then. and now that #4's on the way, i can't say that he's the last. but i keep my hands and heart open, so to speak, because often we don't control this aspect of family planning as much as we think we do (i.e. we can't have more and we want more, we don't want more and we get more, etc.).
i do know that we won't do anything surgical or hormonal to prevent more children.
@katho423 - Thanks, Kathryn. You parents are amazing and your family is the best. I definitely she you guys as a model of a bigger than average family :)
God does always provide. One thing I've noticed out here is that people have fewer kids on average becuase of the cost of living and because people live in small spaces. This kind of makes me sad. We know 1 family with four kids (and Jeff is a pastor at church with tons of others pastors). There are definintely no Frison families out here.
We always said we want two kids and then to adopt one, but then, there is a lot about our lives that is different than what we thought. It's a lot to think and pray about.
@katho423 - awesome website Kath. can't believe they have so many kids adopted from all over!!
This is a great post! If you don't mind, I'd love to post a link to it on my blog...
Anyway, now that were going on #2, the funny thing is (and I mean really funny to me & scary to Dave) is that I can see us having 4. We'd always pretty much agreed on 3 because we really want to adopt at least 1 African-American at risk child. But, my heart has been opening up more & more to the idea of either adopting 2 more after this, or giving birth to one more after this.
The dilemna I have is the same as yours basically.... I want to do seminary, and write books, and speak, and be an InterVarsity staffer... and ... and... So, when do I slow my butt down & take care of all these babies?
In addition to that, how on earth do we help all these kids get to college or weddings on our meager IV budget? Unless my speaking, blogging, writing produces some sort of influx....well, I don't see that happening.
And also, I'd really love to be out of the baby stage sooner than later & take my kids on cool trips, etc.
Part of me says I'd "just love" to give all that up to add more kids & part of me says I'd "just love" to give my kids a lot of cool things I never had like vacations, or extra spending money in high school, or help with college. I mean, Dave paid for our entire wedding & honeymoon for crying out loud. There was ZERO family contribution. (from my side at least).
Anyway, it's one I'm up in the air about totally. Dave would be totally pleased to say let's stop at 3, case closed. But I do believe God is opening up my heart for a fourth. If I didn't have all these dreams of writing and speaking, etc. I'd say my ideal family size would be 5 or 6. But I'm also struggling b/c I grew up poor & I'm not terribly interested in being poor either. Just to be frank. So, I do consider that.
One thing I know for doggone sure is that if we have extra kids, they are NOT all coming out of my body... we will have to adopt the rest... plus I really want black children... really. That would be lovely beyond measure.
again, great post, got me thinking! ;)
@IloveRansom - sure, go ahead and link it.
Lisa, this is a great post. We don't have any wonderful enlightenments on it, but have been talking about it a lot. We've always said we want at least 3 children, maybe 4. Depending on the day you ask me, that can change from 3 to 4 kids.
We are hoping to adopt in the next few years and sometimes I think that I'd be open to adopting a sibling set, though that would mean probably one older child and one younger one. I've also thought about adopting a special needs child as well. In this case, it's difficult to decide how much upheaval we should put our current children through to add to our family.
I have heard some Christians deride the idea of having only 2 children, stating that children are a blessing and should not be viewed as our current society does as a burden and that we should have as many as possible. I disagree with that -- not that children aren't a blessing, because they clearly are. But because at some point it becomes a resource issue -- not just financial but emotional as well. I know that I personally can be burned out and stretched to the max with just two. I think each child enhances and blesses a family individually but it's unfair to tell people that they don't have enough children (this isn't addressed to you, more to the people I sometimes hear on the radio).
Great topic!
I love how you wrote, "it's harder with kids, but what they don't know is that life is better and richer with my kids. "
It's something that I never fully appreciated until 2 months ago. Of course we are nowhere ready to think about #2 at this point, but this definitely got me thinking more about the topic. I came from a family of 3 girls, and also have a clan of cousins that are all +/- 3 years in age, so I've often reminisced about how fun it was growing up with so many friends around. In contrast, Ed has only his twin sister, and no memory of any cousins. I think this has definitely impacted us in terms of how big we want our family to be in the future. Great post, Lisa!@kinaida - Kindra, I definitely agree about the emotinal capacity issue (and even would add physical capacity). I don't think everyone is cut out for tons of kids and that capacity issues are a big question mark. Some days, I definitely feel like I'm at my max capacity, but then it's hard to tell because having a newborn and a 3 year old is just a stage.
Thanks for your comments.
Great topic & discussion. I want to be able to provide finances and attention to all of our children, but I also don't want to reduce children to 'expenses', and I recognize that larger families might better help children understand they are not the center of the world. I've always been a 3 kid person, but, to be honest, having 2 kids is a lot crazier than I ever imagined, and I worry that in my mad running around after everyone, I might be missing something. One question I kept coming back to is, "What are families for?" Like, in the broad, Kingdom of God-ish, sense, what is the role of families play in lives of the family members & in our world. I think that answer could include sending the members out to fulfill the things God has called them to (outside of the family). And then- considering how the work stuff that D & I believe God has called us to, is there an amount of children we could have, where at some point we aren't able to effectively do those other things God has called us to? But, the problem there, is that career stuff isn't really a stable variable, I really do believe in the whole 'seasons of life' thing, and I don't want to make that stuff into an idol, so I'm back to not knowing! It's funny that you rarely hear people talk about, 'discerning God's will' regarding amount of children they have. ~Emily U